tales from a fangirl

She was on the show because Joss Whedon has a fetish for nerdy girls and rape victims and she managed to combine the two into one super-skinny package. I like her in the Pylea arc and I love her in early Season Four (Deep Down through Supersymmetry) but otherwise she's just a waste of potential and a sex object rather than a person.

Also River Tam is Fred - any kind of appeal + more crazy. In the movie she has her Illyria moment and is suddenly a badass.

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Joss and his fucking fetishes, I swear. Nerdy girls who engage in baby-talk but are really super-damned smart and everyone loves them. No need for characterization if you look good curled into a corner, crying over *insert angst here*.

When she was introduced, I was really confused because it was clear she was there to stay but I couldn't find her angle. What she brought to the table. It wasn't until a few years later that I understood. Ick, Joss.

Also, I know jack about Firefly but from everything I've read and the clips I've seen, you are exactly right.

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LOL @ our matching 'bitch please' icons. I guess that particular frame of "Dear Boy" is just screaming for it.

Joss's nerd girl fetish largely comes from Kitty Pryde of the X-Men (my other big fandom is comics fandom), upon whom he based Buffy, Fred, Willow, Kaylee, pretty much all his female protagonists and nerdy girls.

Kitty is just a more complex character than most of those, and he compartmentalizes her into her facets (tough fighter, computer whiz, wisecracker, etc) because Kitty is essentially the ur-example of the canon Mary Sue. This was intentional; she's the reader proxy for the teenage audience and is supposed to be as special as possible. It just becomes an issue when it's translated to adult characters in an adult medium.

Firefly is actually pretty good but River is the worst. On the tv series at least she is kept in the background, but the movie is just. Ugh.

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yazizzle33.livejournal.com

and ended an epic friendship

I will always hate her for this. I'm sorry, but Wes/Gunn are my brotp and her coming in there and shitting over all of that was just not cool. Plus, I agree that I didn't understand her purpose. She brought nothing to the show and should've been gone after the Pylea arc or whatever.

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I don't blame the character herself because I think she went largely unaware of the pissing contest going on around her, but outside the narrative I have a huge problem with two BFFs severing their bond over a romantic interest. It wouldn't fly if it were two women and it's no less crappy when it's two men. That shit is pure soap opera and I thought the writers were better than that. Silly me.

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yazizzle33.livejournal.com

LOL. See, I just can't understand how she couldn't be aware of it, and I guess that's where my hate comes in. Plus, it's like you said, Wes and Gunn just let it get to them and I'm surprised at how much of a wedge she created between the two of them. Bad writing is bad.

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I loved Fred during the Pylea arc but after that it was a serious case of WTF.

I didn't even see much of S5 but I get the feeling that they tried to sex her up and bump her up to leading lady status, just so they could make up for the lack of Cordy. Did. Not. Work.

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It gets really gratuitous sometimes. Like, long lingering shots on her legs in a tiny miniskirt.

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Ugh, now see? I got that impression from just the promo shots ala S5 alone (looked once; hated, too little Cordy). I don't think I could've stomached the whole lingering shot thing.

I feel your pain. Seriously.

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I like Season Five a lot but only from "Damage" onward. Because then "You're Welcome" happens and then after that it's like, the show acknowledges that not having Cordy around is awful. And whenever Angel talks about her, his face... ugh just his face. I could hug him a thousand times.

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I have to admit that I saw Not Fade Away at the NFA convention a few years ago (I was kind of forced to watch it, lol) and I actually liked that ep. The lack of Cordy was still very much there but it was okay. I just couldn't stomach the rest of it.

Hearing things like that though, sort of gives me hope. At least she's acknowledged from that point on.

*hugs Angel* We know he loved her. It's just a shame the PTB of the show hadn't worked it out before they assassinated her character.

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"Not Fade Away" is one of the best episodes of the entire show. I honestly think "Damage" through "Not Fade Away" as a 12 episode unit is like, better than the 13 episodes of Firefly, and I say this as an insane Cordy fan -- srsly you can check my recent journal entries to see just how insanely I love that woman. I just think "You're Welcome" really puts the rest of the show into a post-Cordy context that is respectful of Cordy and makes her presence felt, even through the finale.

But the first half of the season sans Cordy is just brutal, not gonna lie.

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I've just been at your journal, actually. And I wholeheartedly agree with a hell of a lot of what you've said - about Lindsey and Eve, about the character arcs for Lorne, Gunn, et al.

And if I thought I could sit through the first half? I'd probably willingly sit through the second half, especially with that recommendation.

I didn't really sit through S4 either, if I'm honest. I read spoilers and shied away from watching them butcher Cordelia completely. I own both seasons and keep meaning to watch them but--There's always something that stops me.

Wanting to hunt Joss down with a large plank of wood springs to mind. *G*

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Oh, well I think that you should watch them. I mean there's a lot of good stuff in there, aside from what happens to Cordy. She is my favorite but I try to look past that for the other characters whom I love almost as much (Wes, Lilah, Angel, sometimes Gunn, in rare once-in-a-blue-moon episodes Fred, etc).

But yeah I would give Joss a slap if I could. It was always a better show when he was hands-off.

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I'm pretty sure that I started watching a while back. I even got a couple of episodes in and found Spike faintly amusing.

I think what stopped me was the party ep? The Eve/Angel sexins? *shudders* I really should attempt watching them, I know.

Heh. We should all join forces, us disgruntled fans ('cause there's not just us, of course) and go hunt him down. It WAS a better show when he wasn't around.

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I actually find the Angel/Eve sex completely hilarious because of how nonchalant Eve is about it. It's like the one and only time Eve is likable.

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Heh. Duly noted.

I mentioned in my own journal yesterday about wanting to rewatch after watching Expecting on ~~Sci Fi~~ SyFy.

Maybe I should include the whole season this time and just grit my teeth through S5. And S4.

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I really recommend it. I'm in the middle of a rewatch right now (I'm in S2, it is fabulous) and there's always something so refreshing about watching a series in its entirety. You get to pull out all the thematic threads and see where they go.

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I've not done the whole series rewatch (of any of my shows, actually, which makes me kinda sad) - but I did start an Angel one a while back.

It's funny 'cause the first time around? I really did not love the whole Beige-Angel/Pylea arc.

Yet second time around? I found it was one of my favourites of the entire show. <3

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"Beige Angel" is probably my favorite story arc, as it were. Like of all the compact story arcs I can identify, it'd be a toss-up between that and Wesley's shitshow in "Loyalty"/"Sleep Tight"/"Forgiving".

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damnskippytoo.livejournal.com

I have to respectfully disagree with e_w as a heavy duty C/A shipper about the rest of S5 after YW. She is only mentioned in passing three times I believe and while Angel's face is tortured for those few seconds, it's hardly worth it to me to sit through the rest of the shite.

The episode immediately following Cordy's death? It's like she never existed once more. No mention. No mourning. Nada. Then the second episode after she died, he's got a boner going for Nina and magically the curse is not a problem. Eight years as the reason why he can never have a relationship and in 30 seconds Wesley convinces him it's okay now because, HEY, WHAT'S THE CHANCE YOU'LL EVER BE TRULY HAPPY ANYWAY?

Then comes the OMG FRED IS THREATENED AND WE MUST SAVE HER BECAUSE SHE'S THE MOST PERFECT PERSON IN THE WORLD AND WE DIDN'T SAVE CORDY BECAUSE...oh, yeah, why didn't we save Cordy? Then, we're back to OMG FRED IS DYING, LET'S GATHER AROUND HER AND SUPPORT HER AND VISIT HER BECAUSE WE'RE ALL HER BOYS but we never visited Cordy...not once. And then, it's OMG FRED IS DEDZ AND NOW WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH HER IN BLUE FACE AND OH THE ANGST IS EXCRUCIATING FOR LIKE 6 EPIOSDES BUT oh, yeah, we failed to care that Cordy died.

So if you can put your love for Cordy and the fact that Angel was supposed to love her but doesn't act like it out of your mind, you could enjoy the drama. There's Origin which is, IMO, one of the best episodes of S5, but other than that it all felt extremely false to me on a character level for all of them. But, then, most of S5 is OOC for me so I guess I am more than a bit biased. :D

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It just didn't matter how objectively good the episodes might have been in s5, it was still empty without Cordelia.

And I can't get past the fact that Angel and Wes couldn't even find her hospital room. WTF?

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I guess what I like about it is the idea that talking about Cordy is just too painful, so Angel doesn't do it very often. And everyone knows better than to bring her up in front of him. In "Power Play" it is totally her vision that is his salvation, so I think it is shippy as fuck. If you think he's portrayed as not loving her, I don't know what to tell you. Even after he gets with Nina, it feels to me like Cordy is all he thinks about. Nina is a friend and a booty call, not much more.

I also just think the post-YW episodes themselves are really great, but that's subjective.

I like that he doesn't lose his soul with Nina because it shows that he's not remotely over Cordelia at all. And we already knew he could have sex without losing his soul after 2.15 "Reprise". I always felt the interpretation of the curse as purely sex-related was goofy, anyway.

In terms of saving Cordy: obviously they can't go all-out to wake Cordy up because Whedon didn't want her to wake up, and yeah that is a flaw. They also don't visit her on-screen that we see because, well, Whedon didn't want CC on-set. I can't blame the characters for that. I just tend to assume that they had the best doctors in the world on the case and it was pretty clear that there wasn't gonna be any fixing this.

My standard fanwank is actually that the memory alteration spell that makes them forget about Connor also makes them not really think about Cordelia, because she's the person who would be most tied to their memories of him. But that's totally just a fanwank.

Edited Date: 2010-08-09 03:25 am (UTC)

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damnskippytoo.livejournal.com

LOL! Yeah, all of that is pretty fanwanky. I'm glad you can see all that and enjoy S5 but I don't see any of that onscreen, and my personal hatred for asshat can't give him any benefit of the doubt when it comes to how the characters may or may not feel.

I agree sex was not an issue for Angel re the curse. But a "relationship" would be and for Wesley to push him into a possible relationship with Nina and for Angel just to say, "Ya think?" and go with it was way OOC, IMO. Plus, two episodes after she died? Really? That's all the supposed off-screen mourning she deserves?

As for Angel and Nina, I thought it was clear they were making him pine after Buffy.

Nina: OK. And you? Good? You weren't thinking about your little Roman friend,
or—

Now that "or" could imply Cordy or it could mean "or the fact that my toenails are like claws." The fact that Cordy's name is barely ever mentioned doesn't, for me, speak to the pain the characters have in hearing it so much as I suspect it's the writers who were told never to write it again. So the lack of it isn't really endearing the characters to me.

I know they would never bring CC on-screen, but a visit to the hospital doesn't have to show her. It could be Angel holding an unseen female's hand or just any of them talking about visiting her or seeing them enter the hospital to talk to her when they're troubled. No mention whatsoever save for the first episode was OOC and unforgiveable, IMO. If they can bring in a no-name person in a blond wig to be Buffy, a no-name woman's hand doesn't seem like too much to ask for.

They had Fred working round-the-clock on how to make Spike corporeal and Angel hated Spike. He couldn't have Fred (who, btw, was Cordy's friend as well) spend five minutes a day working on bringing Cordy from her coma? I mean Fred was everything (Physicist, Physician, Coroner, Chemist, Pathologist, knower of all things magical and mystical, etc.) surely a coma would be a snap for her and especially with Wesley's help who was also Cordy's best friend.

I can buy parts of their memories were wiped regarding Cordy and Connor, but they all still remembered Jasmine and it was obvious they all remembered Cordy when she did show up in YW, so I can't buy that their minds were wiped so much that they just didn't care about her.

Meh, It doesn't matter now. They're not going back and rewriting S5 to please me. But I don't think I'll ever get to the point you are and view S5 with anything other than almost total disappointment and rage.

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Well I only think the last point is fanwanky, which is why I said it was fanwanky.

I just don't think that Angel going on a few dates with Nina and eventually sleeping with her is some huge slap to Cordelia. I think Cordy would -want- Angel to be doing his best to be happy. I think that after losing Connor and Cordy there is really no way that Angel will -ever- achieve "perfect happiness" again; his dream in 4.10 "Awakening" was all about the three of them being a happy family.

Cordy wasn't just in a coma. Her lifeforce was drained dry to birth Jasmine. I agree that the fact that they don't try harder, on-screen, is annoying. But two weeks have passed since "Home", and I imagine they're working around the clock in those two weeks and nothing comes of it. Eventually they give up and hope for a miracle, which eventually comes.

I also think it's totally reasonable to assume that they visit her off-screen and that they just didn't show us that because Whedon was mad at CC and wanted to sweep Cordy under the rug. But there's no suggestion that they -don't- ever visit her, so I just assume they did. I get where you're coming from, though.

I'm not suggesting their minds were wiped to make them not care; my fanwank is that the spell makes them just start thinking about something else when they start dwelling too much on Cordy. But that's totally a fanwank.

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You make good points. However, in regards to how Cordelia would have wanted, I think she'd be making Buffy Jr. snark until the credits rolled.

And I'd really like to believe they visited her, but they made a point at the beginning of YW of Wes and Angel not knowing which room was Cordelia's. Seems pretty clear to me that no one visited her. Except maybe Lorne because I can see Lorne doing that.

However, like DS said, it's done.

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Well, I can see Angel not being able to bear it because Angel is Angel and just. Is Angel. Oh, Angel.

And I honestly think Wesley blames her for Lilah. I really do. In YW when she apologizes and he's like "we know that wasn't you" I don't think he believes what he's saying. I think in that scene, when she apologizes, he finally gets over it. But before that I think there was bitterness there, even if Wes knew it was irrational.

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ladysophiekitty.livejournal.com

I agree.

I loved the Wes/Charles friendship so much! (side note, can't ship them ever because two of my cousins who are brothers have those names and so the idea squicks me out) and it made me sad when she came in between them.

Also, she came in and all the sudden everyone had to become less smart to make room for her awesome skills. Especially Wesley, so that she could do stuff that he used to do.

*sigh* I agree with what other people said too.

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Agreed with you. She was shoehorned in. She wasn't needed, she filled no holes.

Bad AtS. No cookie.

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katiesangels.livejournal.com

She was okay at first for me but got annoying pretty quickly. I don't see why some think she'S this awesome character you just have to love.

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Whenever a character is written in a way that you get the feeling you're supposed to love her, the oppposite generally happens.

She was most annoying with the baby-talk and half crazy ranting in baby-talk. A woman of her intelligence dumbing it down in order to be cute? Thanks, writers. I feel your progressiveness.

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viennawaits.livejournal.com

*look at me journal stalking...like a creeper* Just kidding.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I agree, especially in hindsight. Fred never bothered until s4 when she was making out with everyone and it was clear that she was Joss Whedon's version of fan service to himself which is something pretty disgusting to contemplate, so I'm going to stop.

I think that Fred could have been great, if she'd been a real character, instead of an endearingly bubbly, crazy Mary-Sue. I think they could have done wonderful things with that, but they didn't.

The biggest proof to me that Fred was both unnecessary and a poor choice as lead female in s5 (and I haven't even watched s5, just read stuff about it) is that there was also this tension about romantic entanglements and of her role, sexually, as the only female. That never happened with Cordelia. Even when the show started to be more explicit about C/A, Cordelia didn't suddenly become an object or only able to interact in a somewhat stunted manner with the others.

Fred managed to be, in my opinion, the only female on the show to be sexualized in terms of her feelings and interactions with all the male characters. Which was creepy.

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LJ ate my who damned comment! *cries*

Let's try again.

endearingly bubbly, crazy Mary-Sue.

And that's not really a character is it, it's a trope. A shell with just surface features.

is that there was also this tension about romantic entanglements and of her role, sexually, as the only female. That never happened with Cordelia. Even when the show started to be more explicit about C/A, Cordelia didn't suddenly become an object or only able to interact in a somewhat stunted manner with the others.

That's why Fred always came off as a fanfic character to me....only there for others to react to. Two years and some change and she had undergone no growth, no change...unless you count her getting hallowed out by the writers in order to create a new character. And I don't. That's just pressing the restart button.

I'm glad you commented, and I hope to see more of you. :D

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sarahk-63.livejournal.com

I couldn't agree with you more!

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